EP 15: The Four Letter Word No One Wants to Talk About: Porn. With Jessica Indries

In this episode of Let's Talk Relationships, we delve into the profound and often overlooked effects of pornography addiction, particularly within the Christian community. Our guest, Jes Indries, bravely shares her personal journey, unveiling the insecurities and fears that underpin such struggles. Together, we explore the intricate ways pornography impacts relationships, fostering emotional distance and cultivating unrealistic expectations. Through candid discussion, we strive to break down the stigma surrounding this issue, advocating for openness and embracing God's unconditional love and acceptance.

About Jessica Indries
Jessica Indries is a Fashion Designer with a background in branding, graphic design, and the apparel industry. Beyond her professional pursuits, she is also dedicated to her family and committed to helping others break free from generational patterns and past traumas to realize their full potential.

One significant aspect of Jessica's journey to healing is her involvement in the REMEDY program, a faith-centered recovery program designed to assist individuals in addressing past trauma and unhealthy coping habits. Through this program, she has learned practical tools to process her unaddressed trauma. Jessica is enthusiastic about sharing helpful resources with others on their journey to healing and has made the 'Wheel of Feelings,' a tool from REMEDY, available for free on her website: http://www.wewhoinfluence.com/resources/p/the-wheel-of-feelings

To stay updated on Jessica's journey and to explore the intersection of healing and influence further, you can follow her personal account on social media (@jesindries) and tune in to her upcoming podcast, "We Who Influence" (@wewhoinfluence). Through her podcast, Jessica will be exploring the intersection of healing and influence in our world.

Social Accounts:
@JesIndries
@WeWhoInfluence

Website:
  www.WeWhoInfluence.com

NOTES:
Atlas of the Heart - Brene Brown
Connor Beaton - Man Talks

 ________________________________________________________________

00:00 Introduction to the Topic: The Impact of Pornography

00:25 Guest Introduction: Jess Shares Her Story

01:03 The Prevalence of Pornography in Society

01:44 Jess's Personal Journey with Porn Addiction

03:11 The Church's Approach to Sex and Pornography

04:20 The Connection Between Porn and Other Addictions

05:55 The Role of Shame in Porn Addiction

06:08 The Impact of Porn Addiction on Women

10:41 The Role of Fear and Rejection in Addiction

15:19 The Importance of Emotional Awareness in Overcoming Addiction

25:58 The Impact of Porn Addiction on Relationships

30:25 The Struggle with Addiction

31:35 The Importance of Emotional Intimacy

32:05 The Taboo of Sex in Church

32:44 The Power of Open Communication

32:57 The Impact of Premarital Sex

33:20 The Spiritual Aspect of Sex

34:10 The Misconceptions about Sex

34:47 The Consequence

Instagram:@letstalkrelationships_
Website: https://www.theltrpodcast.com/

Transcript

Beatrice: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Let's Talk Relationships. So today, you guys, we are talking, Ooh, it's gonna be a, we're talking about a very big topic that especially in the Christian world we don't talk about this ever. And we're talking about porn today and the effects it has on our lives, on our dating lives, on our marriages, on just us personally.

And I'm so thankful to have my friend Jess on today because she's gonna share a little bit about her story. Jess, thank you again so much for coming on. This is so brave to come on and talk about this topic. And she's gonna share kind of her story how she kind, she's, you know, dealt with it and yeah.

And she has so much wisdom and care around this topic. And I felt really led to reach out to her. I remember I texted her, I was like. We're recording finally. And I was like, and we're gonna talk about porn. Most people don't get those text messages. Yeah. I'm just, I'm so grateful for you, Jess, for coming on and for being willing to have this [00:01:00] conversation to talk about and be open about this because it is so prevalent in our society.

It's prevalent in our churches, it's prevalent in our communities. And people shy away from talking about it, but it really is, it affects us. It affects us daily. We're very we're in a very sexualized society. So it's not even just porn, but we see sex and sex selling everywhere. Welcome.

Thank you.

Jess: Thanks for

Beatrice: Of course.

Jess: Hi.

Beatrice: Yeah, so I just kinda wanna dive in. I would love for you to tell everybody just a little bit about you and your story. Because I know you just started doing a lot of work around addiction and you're really, you're helping a lot of people through what you were doing.

So yeah, I would just love to give you the floor and for you to tell us a little bit about who you are and and your story.

Jess: Okay I am Jess and I am mother of two, a wife and a Beatrice's friend. No, and I'm really passionate about this subject because it really did affect my life. I was exposed to porn at a very young age [00:02:00] and not that like it was a regular thing. It happened on accident. But then that we grew up in the internet uprising age, and there was like, not as much I think, protection around like what access kids had like everything. And then to add to that, I watched Jerry Springer growing up as a kid, so there's

Beatrice: It's so funny.

Jess: no, but yeah, and so being exposed to. To literally like sex on TV and movies and then in high school on the internet and having access to that. Um, it's really sad. And like I look back at so many times that I had so much shame growing up in church.

You know, being told like, that's

But not really understanding and knowing, okay. But I am also like, I have sexual like feelings, like what is nor healthy? What is [00:03:00] good and what is bad? And then what should I be looking for to see why am I having these cravings? You know, and like, why is it so

Beatrice: for sure. And I feel like. The church did not, especially as we go and still not doing a great job with it, but they don't really talk about sex, like in general, you know, it's just, don't do it. That was it. That was the conversation. It's bad.

Jess: it's

Beatrice: Wait till you're married don't, that's it. That there was no more discussion about that.

And I don't know, I wonder if churches were more open to discussing it hey, these feelings are natural. They're god-given you're going to have them, they will come up. It is natural for us to have sexual desires and have feelings and but not to know what to do with them. And then you deal with the shame and then you hide and they're secret.

And I also think, I think if sex was described and explained in its beauty and why it was designed and how powerful it is and how, just all of that too, this is going a little side tangent. I do [00:04:00] feel like people would understand why you wanna wait, you know? So anyway, I just think they do a good job.

Jess: don't think it's, I don't think it's a side change.

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: I think that's part of it. I think I think of explaining that to my daughters I mean my older daughter, like I have to have that conversation with her and I think. It's just like any

That like, think of drugs, alcohol, I really do compare porn to to those things.

It's an, it can be an addiction and I think sex could be an addiction, but porn

If you're watching it, it's probably an addiction. I don't, I have a few, let me see. I help. I didn't

Beatrice: Oh no, sorry. Go on. I, that's what I'm saying. I interrupted.

Jess: no, you didn't. No. This is gonna be such a good podcast. Okay. No I also serve at my church and we have a care and recovery program that is like

Beatrice: I love that.

Jess: offer. Yeah. We offer care and recovery for all sorts of of needs that,

[00:05:00] Anybody might have, whether you're going through divorce or loss or addiction or you name it. We have a program that can help, and I specifically serve, and facilitate an open group for for a addictions of all sorts. And I think the connection between porn drugs, alcohol, shopping overeating, and just like all these things that can cause our lives to be unmanageable, it's so interesting to me like seeing that people are dealing with those different addictions, but it all comes from the same

And the same root. Of the things would say that really makes me sad is that I never really had anyone to talk

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: it because it was

Beatrice: It wa Yeah, it was,

Jess: And I think that's like the number one thing that keeps people stuck [00:06:00] in it because you're too afraid to share that you're struggling with something that's so shameful.

Beatrice: Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's a huge reason. This is specific to women too. Like I think we hear a lot about porn addictions when it comes to men. Right. I know the statistics are much higher. I don't have exact numbers, that's why I don't wanna share. But they are much higher than women.

I think the last one I looked at, I did look at one yesterday. And I think it was like 45% of women have either been exposed to have, watched it or continually, continuously watch it. And something we were saying we're like, I think that stat is actually probably under reported because I just don't think women talk about it.

I think there's even more shame with women not sharing about it. And so I think we hear a lot about, you know, the effects that it has on men. And it does, it's tremendous. It really does alter men's perception, but it, like you said, it's used as a coping mechanism. And I don't think enough people like realize that connection.

That it's not that porn isn't necessarily only about sex. It actually is a coping mechanism for a [00:07:00] lot of other things. But because we aren't necessarily, you know, taught to deal with overwhelm ser, you know, it becomes a little bit of a numbing agent in a way. Or it gives us, yeah, or it gives us pleasure so that, you know, it's used for, you know, oh, I'm having a bad day, or I got an argument with my wife, or I.

I'm bored. Like it, you know, becomes that. I dunno it's very interesting. It's just it's looked at I don't think it's looked at with curiosity, you know? I don't,

Jess: I

Beatrice: yeah,

Jess: It's too difficult to

Instead of dealing with it and really addressing everything that's connected to it, easier to just say, oh

just don't do it. That's bad. And if you are engaging in that, then

Beatrice: yeah.

Jess: you need like help,

Beatrice: Yeah. And specific to you if you're okay answering, what did you find was at that, at the root of your addiction with it and your connection with it? Yeah. Once you got curious and got to the point where you're like, oh, I'm [00:08:00] under, I'm now under understanding why even got caught up in this, or why I'm even, you know.

Jess: I actually only recently

Like going through the program that I now serve in and I volunteer. It's called

Beatrice: Oh,

Jess: and it's at Mariners Church. If you are in Southern Orange County and you feel like you need, you know, to talk about things that you're struggling with, doesn't have to be porn.

It's a really great program on Monday

Beatrice: I love it.

Jess: At seven. That was

Beatrice: Also, we'll include it in show notes too, so people wanna get in contact.

Jess: Okay. But yeah, I went through that specific program and I went initially thinking, oh, I'm gonna go serve in a cool ministry. Like I've been fascinated with psychology growing up. I took psychology in high school and going there I was like, oh, this is gonna be great.

I'm gonna be serving and helping people. And then as I sat in that open group, I was listening to the women share, and I heard myself in every single one of their stories and the things that they were sharing that they

And I was instantly hit with [00:09:00] so much emotion. I think I cried for two weeks

Beatrice: Wow.

Jess: prior to that I've always struggled with depression and anxiety, which I think is a byproduct of, addiction of any

If not for everyone, at least for me. I think that was my body's like way of dealing with all sorts of emotions that I never learned to

And deal with. And going through this program, I realized that all my stuff that I was dealing with, and when I was addicted to porn, it was like high school into adulthood.

Even early in the beginning of our

I was addicted and only like God helped me get free of it, but I just went to something

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: because Yeah. So I stopped doing that thing, and then I started doing another thing, something else in its place. That's why I see the connection now of it being an

Throughout high school, I was addicted to porn. I dealt with eating disorders like anorexia. I was never [00:10:00] like super skinny. So like you, you wouldn't know. But I dealt with like bulimic tendencies and

All sorts of binge eating, like you name it, I dealt with it. There was just so much hatred of myself at the core, and I realized. Looking back that going from eating disorder to porn addiction, to then gym addiction and eating healthy. And that control of people's perception of me was an addiction and just, and my husband treated me. And if it wasn't what I wanted, I realized at the core of everything was fear and fear of rejection. And I think that's something that is very relatable to a lot of people and maybe you don't realize that you struggle with that. But if, for me, I put other people's opinion about me before my own opinion of myself and before God's opinion

And and I think that's where [00:11:00] it's like a misalignment of your identity everything comes in and takes

I don't know if

Beatrice: Yeah, no, it absolutely does. And I think it's so brave of you to, even the fact that you even made those connections, I think is huge because you're realizing, oh yeah, I cured that one, but I just took all that and moved it into something else, you know? And it's 

Jess: yeah.

Beatrice: I think it's when you never really deal with the root cause of what even drove you to that, you know, then it's just gonna be one thing after another.

It's just gonna be the next thing. It's just gonna be, you know, and so I just, yeah. I find that it's I think it's a testament to, to really understanding the root of the addiction. You have to understand that to really to really not I don't know, say cure it, but it's not like a, I don't know what the right word is, but to really like to get yourself out of it, to stop that addiction, you know?

Jess: It's like one of the tools that we [00:12:00] use at Remedy, it's called The

And it's like you're on this autopilot, right? Our brains work on patterns and you just repeat what you

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: you're able to break those

And just it's just crazy to see you get a trigger

That causes you to jump on that

And then you just go through the motions and you end up on the website

For me going through Remedy, I found myself eating ice cream every night at eight o'clock and you're supposed to withdraw from something and have sobriety a specific thing while you're going

 Mine was ice cream. And as soon as I stopped. decided to give up ice cream. Or even, looking back, I decided to give up porn. I had eating disorders, so I went to something else. And then going through Remedy, this is how I saw the connection. I was like giving up ice cream on my way home. The night that I decided that's the thing I'm gonna be

My [00:13:00] body literally started craving fried chicken

Beatrice: Yeah. So it went to the next, yeah.

Jess: it went to the next thing to fill that void.

And beneath those symptoms, because I call them symptoms, those cravings, those desires is a

It's something deep down inside that you're struggling with that's not healed. I went to a Christine Kane

Beatrice: Oh, I love her. Yeah.

Jess: and yeah, and she spoke on freedom and she was talking about the subject of, you know, being a Christian and. Being a Christian walking in freedom. But remember thinking before, like it connected to me so well,

She's if you come to Jesus, right, you say, I believe, and you give your life to God, but you have cellulite, when you do, you're gonna have cellulite after you say, I believe because that's not a spiritual, save my life

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: And in [00:14:00] that same way, if you have heart wounds, soul wounds, before you say, I believe, like you're gonna have

You have to bring those to God. I never brought those to God. I didn't know that they were so deeply

And I think it's really important for people to realize, like any addiction you have, there's a underlying. Issue that you have to

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: a wound from your childhood. Why do you think God says, come to me like a child? Because there's things in our childhood that us, that translated into every single relationship that you

Your whole life and led me to where I was. And thank God that I'm free of it now.

Beatrice: Yeah. And you've put in the work, you have spent the time to really ask yourself and get curious about it. And I think, like, when I think to porn specifically, I think I have more people got curious about what, or even when they would [00:15:00] use porn or when they would go watch it, like why, what was the trigger?

You know? I was curious. Yeah. That was gonna be my next question was like, in the moments of okay, I wanna go look at it, like what was happening before? Was it a stressful moment or, you know, I'm sure it was multiple different moments, but what drove you in to, to go look at it?

Jess: I think for me, anything that I've ever struggled with, it was always emotional. Emotional

Like not knowing how to cope with my feelings and emotions and having painful emotions that instead of sitting

And trying to figure out where they're coming from and accepting them, it was always, I'm gonna run away

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: And it's just like an autopilot. And I think that's, I think that's a normal part of being

Until you like learn to cope with those things in a healthy

Beatrice: Yeah. Yeah. And that's it's so interesting 'cause I think, I don't, I think it, it well becomes a numbing agent essentially too. It's like you're running, I was reading something about what it does. The crazy thing is [00:16:00] what it does to the brain. It really hijacks your brain chemistry. And there was a study I was looking at actually Connor Beaton posts that it, he's a he's incredible.

He does the, he has Instagram's called Man Talks author. Great guy. But he talks about, he actually shows a study that showed the brain on porn and it was, it looked identical to a brain on heroin. So it's sending all these, you know, these, our brains, just the reactivity is so high and so they, they just talk about how it's so addictive because what it offers us.

So I think it becomes so easy to go to it. It becomes an easy thing to do. One, it's super accessible. It's all over the internet. You can, it's like on Netflix it's not even you don't even have to try. It's literally everywhere. And it becomes so accessible. So I see I can, from what I've been reading too, it's like I can see a lot of people and also men, why, it's more prevalent in men, like we were saying.

But I also think a lot of women struggle with, they just don't talk about [00:17:00] it. And so I think with men it's so prevalent and it's it's like you can understand why and what it does to your brain, what it does. You know? It's this like constant like pleasure and pain. Pleasure and pain. 'cause a lot of the times people do feel shame after it.

So then they feel like crap and then they go back and do it again. They feel better again 'cause it hits, you know, so it's just it's just. Fascinating. Like just the, like what it does to you, you know, and how easily it can become addicting and become a problem.

Jess: I feel like heroin's a really

Beatrice: Oh, it's, it is like it's, it literally showed, I'm gonna post it at some point. It literally showed like your brain chemistry and it showed it normal, showed it on heroin and it showed it on porn. And they were literally the one hair almost identical, like very similar, like what was happening in the brain.

And so people wonder what?

Jess: it's no

Beatrice: Yeah. And that's why it's so difficult to also, I think. Get out of, you know, it's not as easy as just, I think it's not as easy just being like, okay, I'm just not gonna watch porn anymore. 'cause you're not really dealing with the reason why you were watching it to begin with.

And I [00:18:00] think unless you really dive in and try and understand what am I using porn for? Because it's not, like I was saying earlier, I don't think it's always just sexual. Oh, I just wanna masturbate. So that's why I'm using it. I think, if it's an addiction, I feel like it's much more than that.

Jess: Oh I just see such a connection to porn in it of itself is not good

Clearly. Right.

Beatrice: Even in a secular sense, they're saying it's not good for you. Like we're not even, yeah. Like that statement's, not even just from a Christian perspective, like this has been like studied and scientifically, you know, it's like it's not good for you.

Jess: yeah. So that's literally, it's just so fascinating to me because it. It just validates again and again to me that when God tells us, he gives us directions on how to

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: the Bible is literally a manual on guidelines for [00:19:00] what is good for you and what is not. ultimately, God wants us to live

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: So when he tells us, Hey, you should live this way, it's because he loves us. It's not that he doesn't want us to have a good life and have fun or whatever or experience and live, but it's for our own protection. So it's just so fascinating. It's not that, I don't know, through this whole process, I've just, I've grown to understand what sin really is. It's trying to cope with our pain on our own. It's, 

Beatrice: Wow.

Jess: about even how people, you know, hurt

Usually when you're hurting someone that's

Right? Like you're being a jerk or whatever. Why? Because you have pain even if you don't

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: it. I just see sin so different and I understand now why Jesus is healing and by his stripes we are healed because we can go to [00:20:00] him. We can go to God now and live a good life within his guidelines. It doesn't mean that life's gonna be easy. It doesn't mean that it's gonna be

But it's a pro a protection

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: as humans because he designed us. He knows the inner workings of everything.

And if you have an addiction, there is some trauma somewhere in your life that you need healing

Beatrice: yeah. Could be. Yeah. It's could be from your childhood. Could be.

Jess: or wrong thinking,

Beatrice: a traumatic event happened. I think there's a lot of reasons why people turn to addiction. 'cause it is it's, I mean it's coping, it's it generally, it soothes feelings. It calms you down. It ground it, it makes you feel grounded, you know?

,

numbing.

Jess: small as, it doesn't have to be something like big, right? I just think back when I first had

It was for me to feel comfortable in social situations because I was so insecure, which I think was a byproduct of porn addiction because it really made me feel uncomfortable. I almost had just like this [00:21:00] weird disconnect with people

Beatrice: Interesting.

Jess: how to relate to people. I think a lot of different could be, you know, like I had social anxiety and I think that's part of the, a byproduct of porn.

Beatrice: Do you think it was because feeling like the shame that you think you felt with it, so that made social interactions?

Jess: I was actually thinking, I was actually thinking about that today and how there's so much shame surrounding the topic and almost what if people

And I think it formed this perception of myself subconsciously that I'm not acceptable. I'm not lovable.

There's something

Me. You know? I think that was reiterated in a lot of ways in my childhood and throughout high school and and ultimately I think that's what the

Satan wants us to live in bondage, and it starts in childhood. why I think it's [00:22:00] really sad that there is so much exposure for

Beatrice: It is. Yeah, it is

Jess: There's

Beatrice: wild. It's literally out there. It's just out there all the time. Everything's sexualized. Everything is sexualized. It's just, it's mind blowing. I can't imagine, I, one, I can't imagine raising kids and like having to navigate all this, so kudos to you being a mom, but yeah it's wild.

It's like they're being exposed and they don't even know what they're being exposed to either. Is the sad thing.

Jess: Oh, I know. I was, I don't remember what I was watching, but it was something I saw when I was a kid and now in adulthood, I'm like, I do not

Them saying those

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: at all. Like it went over

Beatrice: Yeah, you just don't know. And it's, yeah, it's like kids are just getting more and more exposed to it and yeah. It's sad. I think I was reading something I went and read a bunch of stuff on Condor's web on Instagram, and I think he was saying like, some there's, 'cause his is all men specific, but boys are getting addicted to porn and they're not even like sexually mature yet.

They don't even know, [00:23:00] you know, and it's like, what? You know, it's like just wild to think that's, you know, it's becoming a thing and because it's, I really, it's like it is so accessible and

Jess: And I also think that there's not enough being done to teach our children how to cope with their

Beatrice: yeah.

Jess: How to express what they're feeling

I see my girls, they're totally comp

In personalities. So I have to really address things differently with both of 'em slash they're three years apart.

So different age group, different understanding which that's normal. But I look back at when I was a kid and the things that they deal with now, and I look back at how I, I dealt with it or I was told to deal with it or not

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: it. It just makes so much sense that so many people struggle with it. If you're told as a kid that like you're too emotional, don't

You know, don't express yourself, don't feel what you're feeling and like being told. You're being told [00:24:00] not to feel the way that you do. What do you do with that? Grow, going through remedy. We have a feelings wheel, which I will send you all this stuff because I think it's so important for

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: access to it. But I remember the first time I saw the feeling wheel and I was like, oh, I just feel sad all the time. I didn't know there were all these emotions and like roots

Beatrice: Yeah, we,

Jess: being able to like connect. Why am I feeling sad? Oh, it's actually not this type of sad, it's

Beatrice: yeah

We don't have language to it. Yeah.

Jess: language.

Beatrice: don't have the right language to our feelings. Most of the time we think we're sad, we're angry, we're happy. Those are the three.

Jess: and once I was able to verbalize and give language to what I was feeling, it was a sense of

Beatrice: Oh yeah.

Jess: It was freeing in it of itself, just verbalizing this is, why am I'm sad. This is why I feel this

Beatrice: Yeah, [00:25:00] it helps dismantle the feeling too. It helps you dismantle at the core of what's happening, you know, when you can really identify it. Brene Brown did an incredible, her most recent book covers a lot of this. It's almost like a dictionary of feelings. It's essentially what her book is.

The, I forgot, it's something with heart. I'll have to put it in the show notes also. But she goes in and describes all of these various feelings and there's so many levels to like you said, sadness is a disappointment. Is it that there's so many different levels to it, and it's we don't really learn how to communicate that, and we don't really know beyond a couple feelings, right?

But it could be so much more than just sadness or, you know, so that, that's, I think that's such a key in the healing and in understanding what you're going through. And what's happening internally is being able to put words to it and proper words to it, you know?

Jess: Yeah,

Beatrice: But it takes 

Jess: agree.

Beatrice: lot of self-reflection.

But you know, you mentioned that you know, your addiction, you know, spanned quite a bit of time. You also mentioned it was present at the beginning of your marriage. How do you [00:26:00] feel like it affected your relationship with your husband, either in the dating phase and kind of in marriage?

Jess: I really think that it is something that causes like a disconnect in relationship 100%. Being that the root cause of my addiction was fear of rejection it was something that was easy to go to I felt like I was being rejected. And granted, looking back now at all the thoughts that I've had and like struggles that I've dealt with, a lot of the rejection I was feeling even from my own husband was an illusion that I made up in my

Beatrice: Wow.

Jess: Because yeah, because I think people aren't, at least I was not. Aware of, I knew that okay, he came from a different family. I came from a

We have different ideas on things. I understood those things, but I didn't know how to connect [00:27:00] emotionally in order to have that deeper intimacy.

For me, was also always just sexual, be sexual have sex. That's intimacy. And so I think the real disconnect, I don't know if everybody feels this way, I never realized that true intimacy is an emotional connection and from there is where like the beauty of having sex within marriage is and like the protection that gives

Beatrice: Yeah, absolutely.

Jess: I really, yeah, so there was definitely like a disconnect and it caused more of a disconnect when I would have thoughts that I'm being rejected. Literally, it was ridiculous. I'd lay in bed and then he would turn to one side to get comfortable. And in my head I'm like, oh, he doesn't wanna cuddle.

But I never verbalized, I wanna cuddle.

Beatrice: Wow.

Jess: Like

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: [00:28:00] just, yeah.

Beatrice: Yeah. And

Jess: But I think I find the brain fascinating. I think when, at least for me, being that I was addicted to porn, you start to justify all these things so that you could get back to the thing that gives you relief and you know, so that I could numb.

Does that make sense?

Beatrice: yeah. Yeah. Like almost finding reasons to get you to go back to it.

Jess: Yes.

Beatrice: like you make up the story. Oh, he doesn't want, so that you 

Jess: Yep.

Beatrice: could go

Jess: Exactly.

Beatrice: Wow. Yeah.

Jess: I really do think it's like an autopilot because it's,

Beatrice: Because you want the high, you want the, yeah, it's you want the hit is essentially what it's like. You're like, I just want the hit. You know? And it's, yeah.

Jess: also another thing it does in relationship is it, I think makes sex not as pleasurable because you're addicted to one thing that's giving you that high, that relief. And then in the context of actual sex, it's totally different.

Beatrice: And that, that was something I [00:29:00] was reading about too. In that study they talk about when you essentially, I mean you're essentially masturbating to porn. Let's be just put it out there

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: But that it, it's because yeah. I'm like whatever. We're already talking about it guys, so we're just gonna make it obvious.

So you all know we meet with my pen. 'cause I was studying it and I'm like researching and writing down notes. Yeah. Whatever. That's what you're doing. You're looking at porn, you're masturbating, you're orgasming. Let's all be real about it. But they were saying it's because it's such an intensity. And usually, this is why they make porn so exotic and no one's having sex like that.

Like no one's doing it the way they're doing it in porn. No one's doing it like that, but they make it so exotic and like just animalistic or whatever. It's a show, right? And so the pleasure that you get from that is even higher than it would normally be with normal sex. Like it's just it's even higher, which is what makes it even more addicting.

'cause it's even a higher high. So like the rate of addiction is even higher than other, [00:30:00] the other forms of addiction, right? Because it gives you, it's what it does in the brain hits so high. It's the dopamine, it's a super high. Do you know, hit a dopamine. So it does it, I think it really distorts.

I would imagine it would distort your. It would distort real sex. Like it would distort the, you know.

Jess: Yeah. Oh, it

It's not realistic. And then, so then when you have the real thing, it's oh, this feels like nothing compared to

Beatrice: Yeah. 'cause you're not getting the same hit.

Jess: it's, and it's just like a drug. As soon as you have drugs, from what I know, 'cause I haven't done drugs like that. You want that same high.

So you're gonna constantly chase that high and you'll never get, that

Beatrice: No.

Jess: isn't a never ending search for that relief. And I think that's why, I think that's why so many people struggle maybe with

Just addiction in general because there's so much pain and heartache in the world that that we don't know [00:31:00] how to sort out and heal

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: that.

We just wanna run away from

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: I really do believe that the heart of God is that we would bring those things to him because he does heal and he does offer freedom from the pain of our

Beatrice: Yeah. And like you were saying earlier, like he designed things for a reason, the way they are, the way that he wanted them. And our society always distorts it, you know, the same way we distort sex the same way we, you know, we, we it, we make it into something that it was never intended to be. You know?

And like you were saying earlier, like it really is about you know, emotional intimacy. And that's one thing tying back to what I was saying earlier, the church doesn't talk about this, you know, and I think it becomes so taboo, like even when you're married and. Maybe the sex isn't great, but you're just, you don't even know because you don't, no one talks about it.

So you don't know what do we need to work on to make it better? How do we, you know, a lot of the time women don't understand it is, for women [00:32:00] specifically, it's so much about emotional intimacy for the sex to be good. It's so much about that. And it's just, it makes me so sad to think like we, you know, we don't create space, and I'm talking in general, most churches, some do a great job, right?

But most don't. And then no one wants to talk about it internally. Either I even know, like when I think about some of like my own girlfriends, like no one let's be real. Not everyone's a virgin going, getting married. I'm just gonna throw that out there. It's very rare these days.

And even in that no one wants to talk about no one wants to talk about it. No one talks about it. No one brings it up. You just, there's just assumptions like, did you have, you you know, it's crazy how no one wants to communicate about it. So we won't even talk about that. There's no way we're talking about porn,

Jess: yeah. No,

Beatrice: you know?

Jess: And it's sad. I think if we would talk about it then it would save people a lot of

Beatrice: I. Yes.

Jess: can. So you can teach the younger

Beatrice: Yes. I a hundred percent believe that.

Jess: you

Beatrice: Yes. Yes.

Jess: This is why you should wait. I [00:33:00] didn't wait. And it affected the intimacy in our marriage at the

Beatrice: yeah.

Jess: And not just that because like my husband accepted me and you know, I was honest from the beginning. I was like, I can't get into a relationship and not be

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: the beginning. It haunted me and there was so much regret within

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: Um, and ultimately and this is not in like a new age way, but I think sex is a spiritual

It's something that like our souls intertwine and

Beatrice: It's so powerful.

Jess: spiritual level. And so I think people don't realize that when you're having sex. You are connecting with you're doing it with multiple people, literally opening the door to so much pain that maybe you don't feel in the moment because it's giving you sweet relief from your wanting to be accepted and loved.

And it feels good. It

Beatrice: Yeah. Yep.

Jess: They had sex [00:34:00] with me, so then I'm desirable and I'm in. I feel

That means that I'm attractive. That means that I'm good

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: And it's all these it's connected to so much

Beatrice: So much.

Jess: people don't realize it's, you know, I hear so many people say, oh it's free.

I'm just being free. And I'm like, it's natural and I just wanna experience like how good it feels and just, you know, having sex is not a big deal at all. Because it feels good and

And it's human. Interaction. That's a normal part of humanity, right? But the reason why I think God puts it within the context of marriage is because it is a way to like bond

Beatrice: Oh yeah. It's so powerful.

Jess: But also it's a protection for

Because how many people I've known that like you have sex and then you get rejected the next day. It's a one night stand. And what does that do to you? How does

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: Does it really feel that? [00:35:00] Was it really worth that hit of dopamine? That you got that moment of feeling accepted and loved just for that one night to then go onto the next day to add on more

Of rejection that validates that lie that you believe about yourself, that you aren't worthy of love? like a

Of never ending

Beatrice: Yep.

Jess: and I don't think people see it that way, but that's how I see it now.

Beatrice: I am right. I am like, yes, I'm right there with you. Because I feel you know, I didn't wait till I got married. I'm assuming a shocker. Sorry. Everybody's gonna know that. But and I still wish I had because it, it was, I didn't know no one spoke about it the way I experienced it. Right. Everyone talked about it as just don't do it.

Just don't do it. Wait till you're marry, don't do it. You know? But then you're seeing everything sexualized in the world also. So then you're like, but I now I want, wanna do it. You know? Like you see it out there and you're like. Yeah, I'm like, that was interesting.

Like I you know, and I think if I had understood [00:36:00] that, like what you just said, like how powerful it can be, it's a spiritual bonding. It is exhilarating. It is beautiful. It is bonding it, you know, it really does make you feel emotionally connected to somebody if it's the right person. And you know, there's so many things that it does, but when out of the right context, it can be painful and hurtful and like the whole experience can be terrible, you know?

And it's it was, I just, it's like I wish it, someone had explained that to me versus just kept telling me, just don't do it. Right. Explain to me the consequences emotionally of having sex with maybe multiple people or, you know, I think if it was explained differently, I think my mindset would've been totally changed around the entire topic, around all of it.

And yeah, I just don't think it's we just don't explain it enough, especially in the, you know, in church context. I'm like my sister and everybody around me just don't do it. Just don't do it. It was very adamant but then there was nothing more of what's so beautiful about it?

What's so great about it being in the context [00:37:00] of marriage? And it's it is there to protect you, you know, to protect you emotionally. And the thing is, another thing I see like sex is blinding also, when you have it outside of the context of marriage. You it because of what it does to your brain.

Literally the endorphins in your brain the pheromones, everything. It's great. It's awesome. You're happy, you're all the good things, right? But it ke it can, one, I think keep you in wrong relationships because you have a fight,

Jess: Oh.

Beatrice: you have sex, and then you're like, oh, I feel so much better now. Oh, everything's great, you know?

But in reality it's no, this person's totally wrong for you, but what you, what your connection is, it's physical and that's pretty much all that it is. And it's really hard to break that off. It's chemical. It's literally a connection. And so it makes it really difficult.

Jess: as a drug.

Beatrice: Exactly. And I don't think it'll recognize that.

Like I see people that are in relationships that I'm like y'all. That doesn't sound like a good relationship, but it's like I know that, I know for sure they're sleeping together and [00:38:00] it's yeah, because that becomes so intoxicating and so high. It's what bonds you, so it makes it difficult to let go and to want to break up to like sever that because it really is, I know a lot of people call it like soul ties.

Like you really are now bonded and tied to this person. I can't even imagine a one night stand. I've never done it. No. Shamed. People who have and you know, everyone has done stuff. God forgives it all. I've never had that, but that I can't even fathom. Like I literally am, like, I could not ever, I just don't, but I could.

Honestly, I probably like, if I really let myself, I probably could, but I just couldn't understand. I couldn't understand the the after of what I would feel. It would be awful. You know, you think about all that, but yeah, I just, I like, like what you were saying, I just wished it was explained better because there's consequences to it and I think that's what.

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: People don't understand. Yes, sin is all equal, but not all. Sin has the same consequence. And the consequence

Jess: No.

Beatrice: of sex a lot of the time is emotional ties. Right? Your, you [00:39:00] get hurt emotionally, right? And you don't know the effect it's gonna have on your long-term relationship, your marriage.

Really know until you're there, you know?

Jess: And I actually that reminds me, I heard this and I don't remember who it was, but they were talking about how on a chemical level, your brain releases all sorts of

While you're having sex or after you have sex. And from a female perspective, every single female, and I don't know if this is like I have to do research, so I wanna research this after, but females, when they're having sex with a man will release chemicals that cause them to bond to them, like where they are in love with them.

Beatrice: Yes.

Jess: love

Beatrice: I've actually read something similar. It's very different for men.

Jess: Whereas men have to be in love with the woman in order to have those chemicals released to where they're bonding to

Beatrice: Yes.

Jess: So

Beatrice: men it's just an act a lot of the time. Unless there's love

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: [00:40:00] and that makes it different if there is love and bondage there to that person. Right. But yes, I've also It's a different, yeah, it's a different thing, you know, and it's and that, that's why I think if we really understood the power of it, like sex is powerful.

It is also beautiful and wonderful and God created it to have fun with it and to be great. But he did it in the context of marriage. I just I don't know, I think about the kids nowadays. Like I just wished so much that it was explained, that it was explained that way to me at that age. 'cause I feel like the outcome would be so different.

Jess: Nowadays it's scary to me that they're literally telling kids that it's normal. You should experiment because it's a normal part of being a human. And that's really scary to me because it's not normal for children to be engaging in that or to be exposed to these

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: It's not healthy.

Beatrice: Yeah. And it's crazy 'cause a lot of, I was reading [00:41:00] this somewhere as well. A lot of porn addiction generally started very young because they were exposed super, super young. And I'm talking young, I think it was like ten nine not like 15, 16, like young. They're kids. And it's just 

Jess: Like elementary school.

Beatrice: And I'm like, it's just so crazy to me that's like what's happening. But I love it.

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: I love that we get to talk about this and we're open about it, but

Jess: too. Yeah.

Beatrice: I don't think can't wait for everyone to hear all this, but I just, I don't know. I feel like I'm just becoming more of an open book because I, I think I'm becoming who I wished I knew when I was my, when I was younger, like I wished when I was 21, I had someone who was 34 who I could go to and talk about all this.

I didn't have that. We grew up in the same church. We grew up in that community. Who would we have gone to and talked to about, I couldn't go to my sisters, God forbid. Like we didn't have that. And so I, when I just think about this [00:42:00] and I'm so grateful for you to come out and also just talk about.

Porn and addiction and eating disorders and all this that we've gone through because we've, I think we've just been so hidden behind closets about all of this, even like our sexual desires and like all that they're, and not inherently bad, right? But it's when we start hiding up and not talking about them and not knowing what to do with them and not, you know, knowing how to process them and our feel, all of that.

When we start hiding all of it, that's when it becomes a problem. God is not scared of any of this. God is not oh my God, don't tell God that you have sexual feelings or that you're feeling this, or we're just,

Jess: He sees

Beatrice: yeah, we're just judgy. And I think, 'cause our background

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: I'm talking about the church in our sys like, you know, like how we grew up, it was very strict.

You didn't talk about any of this stuff, you know? And and everyone was doing it behind anyone's backs. We swear, like all the church kids that were like, oh, saints yeah, right? If you really knew, it's because everyone felt that to hide everything and everything was hidden.

And so I just, you know.

Jess: because I think it's [00:43:00] because we grew up in a in like a community where I. You had to look your best in

Accepted

Beatrice: Constantly.

Jess: I think the gospel that I understood was that God looked down

Beatrice: Yep.

Jess: and that he was waiting for us to mess

Beatrice: Yep.

Jess: because we were just terrible. I didn't even though, you know, I heard that Jesus died for your sins 'cause he loves you. that's not the God that I actually knew.

Beatrice: No, because no one put that on display.

Jess: yeah, it was always like, oh, don't

There was no safe, there was no, I think real safe place to come and talk about the things that you're really struggling with. and no real example of like people being transparent with the reality of things that we're gonna face on, we supposed to raise up our children in order to be prepared for the world? [00:44:00] I'm not saying that I'm perfect and I'm still navigating learning how to, teach my kids, like what's good for them, what's

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: like in, in the right timing and and just really address things that they're exposed to in the right way.

But I think that, my parents didn't talk to me about this kind of stuff.

Beatrice: No.

Jess: I didn't have a place to really learn about it and that it was normal. So I always felt like there was something

Beatrice: mm-Hmm.

Jess: Like literally, I just, I always thought there's something wrong

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: and that made it worse because then you're stuck in your head thinking there's something wrong with me.

I can't tell people that because then

Me. if there's something wrong with me, what does

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: You know?

Beatrice: Oh yeah. I remember when, like I was, I prided myself as being the virgin. I was like, I've waited. I, you know, and when that wasn't the case anymore, the amount of shame I had, because I identified myself so much with that, [00:45:00] and I didn't, I had no one to turn to. I remember literally being like I was like, I have no, I can't tell anyone.

I can't talk about this. I can't talk about how I was traumatized a little bit because I was shocked that I even did that. I, it was so much that came with it. And it just, it's just

Sucked.

Jess: remember feeling like it was like literally in that moment, like God turned his back on me.

Beatrice: Yeah. Oh, I felt, yes. The level of shame was so deep. I remember I was so upset at my partner. I was just like, I can't believe that you let this happen. I was literally like, just because he was the only one I could turn to because that was like, who else was I able to talk to about it? And I kept it secret for years.

I was like, did not wanna talk about it. I was you know, and it's that's not like God wanted me to bring it to him and be like, oh, now I understand why you're asking us to wait. I am understanding the value in I now, I understand the value in waiting. I understand why it's important.

I understand what it does to us, how it makes you connected to someone [00:46:00] who you really shouldn't be with, you know? And it's, it made me understand in a way I hate to say this, but I don't regret it because I get to look back and I feel like I now understand the weight of it. You know, that I didn't think I don't think I would've understood one because no one ever really explains it, but I don't think I would've understood otherwise.

And I, it all gets used for good. It really does. And it's, it, again, different consequences to it, but. Yeah. I just I, like I said I wished I had known the gravity of it.

Jess: Yeah. And I think that's the beautiful part of coming to God with

That we've struggled with and in the ways we've sinned, that he takes that and he uses it for his

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: like now you get to talk about it so that other people can understand, like the reality of what sex is, of how porn really does

In such a negative way.

And, [00:47:00] I think that's beautiful. 

Beatrice: Aw. I'm so glad we got to do this episode together. You know what's crazy, I have to tell everybody this. So we've tried to record me my pen again. Ah, I'm like, so we've tried we've tried to record twice now. Two or three times. Two or three times. Literally one time it was. Three times. Three times.

Okay. We literally it was like the internet one time, then something else came up, and then literally things were just not working like the last time we started recording. And I've never had this degree. There's always things that go wrong during podcasting, but I've never had this degree of just it not working.

I'm like, what is going on? My internet's out. I'm like, what the heck? It was so crazy. And I later had a feeling, I was like, I feel like it's, 'cause this is not the right topic, the topic that we had initially wanted to talk about, it just felt like something was wrong. And we had said, I said let's just put this to rest for now.

And I was like, we will figure out the right time to record. And it [00:48:00] wasn't until I was at a bachelorette party a couple weeks ago and we were out and we had met these two guys. They're super nice. Not sleazy guys, just like fun guys to talk to while we were out. And, one of the girls straight up asked him something.

I don't even know how porn came up, but the conversation comes up and the guy was like, oh yeah, he's telling us like how he quit it like three years ago and how he's a big, now, he's like a big advocate to men in his life, to quit and to get off of it. And he was telling us the effects it's had on him and how he was using it to cope.

And he was like, I was using it to like, for no reason. I didn't even need, I didn't even want it. I didn't even care. It was

Jess: Yeah,

Beatrice: he was going through,

Jess: a

Beatrice: yeah, like he said, I just, I would just sometimes daily and I'm like, why am I doing this? And he started to question it in himself and he had not watched it in three years.

And so now I'm like interested, I'm like asking all these questions like, how did I make this, how did it work? You know? And then I get home and I was like, that's what we need to talk about. And I text Jess and I go, Hey, do you wanna record a podcast? Do we can we talk about porn? And so it just, I.

Jess: I

Beatrice: And [00:49:00] she's yes. Like I've been wanting, you know? And so I just felt like this is why we waited. 'cause this is the conversation we want. 'cause I said, if I'm gonna start this podcast, we're gonna have real and honest conversations. And not everyone's gonna like that. I guarantee this episode's gonna be one of those where people are like, Ooh are you promoting sex before marriage?

I've gotten some of those d no. You know, if you would listen, you would understand what we were talking about. But

Jess: Yeah.

Beatrice: I'll to say, I'm really thankful that you're on, and I felt like this was the exact topic we needed to talk about and bring to light. And we're only scratching the surface like this.

There's so much deeper layers to this. 

Jess: Oh

I'm not an expert. I just experienced it.

Beatrice: You're just sharing, yeah. You're sharing your side of it. And and I hope that this just gives people, I think also one with porn and also with sex. I think we don't, again, we don't talk about it enough, so I like. If anyone wants to DM me and talk about, like women only thinks their experiences and maybe, you know, they just felt shame around and like to be like, man, I haven't had anyone to talk about this.

[00:50:00] I'm open to that. And I just want people to know that they're not alone out there and God, Jesus loves you regardless. And the more we hide, the worse things become, the more you're like, this is what happened. I'm moving on and now I understand why I don't wanna do this again. Right. When you understand the why behind stuff, you're more likely to stop.

Jess: Oh yeah.

Beatrice: thank you so much for being on here and doing this. Very brave of you. And I appreciate it and definitely send us, I know I just admitted a lot of things on here. Ah

Jess: Thanks for

Beatrice: of course. And then we'll definitely share about Remedy remedy, right? Correct. Yeah.

You'll send me links and we'll get all that in there.

For people who want who maybe wanna reach out, if you live in Orange County, this would be a great opportunity for you. It's a safe space. And yeah. Thank you so much, Jess. Yeah.

Jess: And yeah, I'm definitely gonna have some some of the, what is it? Some of the documents that people can look

Beatrice: Great.

Jess: I'll send it to you and then I'll have it available on we who influence [00:51:00] website once that's up and running. 

Beatrice: Can you also give us a little bit Yeah. Give us a little bit of a background on this, because this is the perfect time to plug it.

Jess: So this topic, obviously, like you said, it's so much deeper. There's so many layers and I think that there's just so much that people don't talk about and they're stuck in bondage.

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: really think that in order to be like your best version in order to really impact the

You have to really address the things that are holding

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: from the things from your past, so that you can actually move forward.

For me, going through this whole healing journey, I actually found myself when I was looking for my my acceptance and, you know, running from that fear

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: I lost myself. I didn't know who I was anymore because I was living to really please other people and to be who I thought that other people wanted me

That I no longer knew what I liked, the things that I was interested in, and I would just morph to be anything, [00:52:00] to be

Beatrice: Yeah.

Jess: And so I think you lose yourself, you can't be impactful to your fullest potential. So that's why I wanted to start a podcast too. Talk about real things. Talk about, 

Beatrice: yeah.

Jess: Why am I the way that I am? Why am I struggling with this thing that is hindering me from moving forward and really impacting the world?

Or why don't I know what I wanna do

Beatrice: I'm so excited for you. I love it. I'm so excited for this podcast. I've been

Much encouraging her to start, so I'm like, just start.

Jess: I know. I was gonna say, if it wasn't for you, I don't know if I would've started. I'm so

Beatrice: Of course. I'm so glad you're doing it. And I wanna reiterate I feel like God cannot use who you pretend to be. God is looking for people who are obedient in who God created them to be. God created us also differently, and God created us to be very specific. You know, and I always picture this, I always picture we're like a block of marble and God's just trying to chip away like, Nope, that [00:53:00] insecurity, that's not you.

That's not you. And I just see him chipping away at who we are so that we can become who he wants us to be. And that's.

Jess: so good.

Beatrice: And that's how he's gonna use this. That's how he wants us to use, he wants to use people who are gonna be obedient to him and who are who they are. You know?

Jess: 100%.

Beatrice: I love that.

Jess: you, how that, I love that saying because he's chipping away the insecurities. Those are things that

Beatrice: Yes. All these identities. Oh, I'm like this. So I'm like, even yeah, I love, okay I love the Enneagram and all that stuff, but even sometimes that will put some stuff, we'll tack it on and I'm, it's, and they're all good things. I use those a lot, but it's I do feel like God is constantly really chipping at us of things that we've added onto ourselves.

Oh, I don't feel like this, or, I'm not like this. Or, I'm this, or I'm this. And God's no, I didn't give you that identity. That's from you. That's not from me. You know? And he's I'm trying to make you into who I want you to be. You know? And that's how we have to come out into this world. That's how we, that's who we rep, rep represent.

We have to represent who God's created us to be and who cares what people [00:54:00] think.

Jess: you bring. Yeah, no, I think you bring up such a good point. Like I think people struggle so much with themselves. I see people who struggle with alcoholism and drugs and even porn addiction and how that really becomes their

Beatrice: Yeah,

Jess: And that's why I loved Remedy so much because it was a place where you can understand in the context of what God thinks about that thing that you're struggling with. It's not your identity. You're no longer an alcoholic, you just struggle with alcoholism. But you are free in Christ and you can overcome that. And I've just seen so many people freed

Beatrice: Yeah. There's so much.

Jess: struggle

Beatrice: And I'm, by all means, I'm in no way solved or perfect, but there's just so much freedom in coming out and being like, okay, God use me. What do you wanna do with me? You know, I'm here. I'm broken. I'm not perfect. I'm not trying to be all these things, you know?

And there's so much, there's so much beauty and freedom in it, [00:55:00] although it's not easy every day. It's a struggle. It's a battle, literally. Like I understand when God's pick up your cross every day. I'm like, literally it's every day. Like you live in a society that makes it difficult

Jess: moment.

Beatrice: hour, you know?

So I think it's so true. And yeah God uses the willing and even times like I said we like to label ourselves like even like I'm introverted or I'm this, but Oh, so I can't speak in front of people. God doesn't really care. Like he usually asks you to do stuff that you're generally not as equipped for.

And he will be the thing you need to get you there. So I'm excited for that. We who influence coming in sometime soon.

Jess: 2024.

Beatrice: Yes like very soon. I'm gonna make sure I'm kidding.

Jess: soon.

Beatrice: So we'll definitely drop her Instagram in here too. She actually, oh my God, you helped me with all my branding. Look at that.

I forgot to tell people about that. But thank you for helping with all that. I could not do, I'm telling you this takes a village. You cannot do all this alone. And I'm grateful that I have really creative friends that have been able to jump in and help with all this fun stuff. But [00:56:00] thank you so much and thank you for listening and if you love this podcast and you're getting something out of it and you really enjoy it, I would appreciate a follow.

That helps a ton. If you wanna leave a little comment as well, that helps as well. And follow Instagram to keep up with all the episodes. Everybody,

Jess: so much for

Beatrice: of course. Bye bye.

Jess: Bye.